$10,000 and growing fast
11.12.09 | Duncan | 
Email This Post
We have been overwhelmed with the incredible response from New Zealand, and have sailed past our original target of $10,000 in less than 48 hours. More importantly, we have started the discussion around the web, and hopefully at dining tables and in living rooms all over our beautiful country.
Of course we now doubled our target, so we need your help to continue spreading the message. Post on Facebook, tweet about it, get involved in the huge number of discussions going on around the web, and talk to your friends and family about it. Remember this campaign is about positivity, and we need to respect peoples alternative points of view, just as we hope they will respect ours. It is easy to get caught up in what can understandably be a very personal and emotional issue for some people.
Simon will be appearing on Close Up tonight, TV1 at 7pm to discuss the campaign. It should also be posted up on the TVNZ website later tonight.
Thanks to everyone who has sent us positive messages, and offered their support. We are trying really hard to answer all your questions, hopefully we will have more time over the weekend to do that!
127 Responses to “$10,000 and growing fast”
Pages: « 1 2 3 [4] 5 » Show All
Pages: « 1 2 3 [4] 5 » Show All
December 16th, 2009 at 10:52 am
Just for fun
Which is it? Is man one of God’s blunders, or is God one of man’s blunders? – Nietzsche.
An aetheist is a man that has no invisible means of support. – John Buchan
December 16th, 2009 at 11:18 am
More quotes for laughs:
“The worst moment for the atheist is when he is really thankful and has nobody to thank.” – Dante Gabriel Rossetti
“I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability.” – Oscar Wilde
“God is not dead but alive and well and working on a much less ambitious project.” – Anonymous, Graffito
“If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name in a Swiss bank.” – Woody Allen
“Suppose we’ve chosen the wrong god. Every time we go to church we’re just making him madder and madder.” – Homer Simpson
“One man’s theology is another man’s belly laugh.” – Robert A Heinlein
December 16th, 2009 at 11:23 am
Another good laugh:
“Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.”
(Leviticus 25:44-45)
December 16th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
and further on the lighter note of things (by the way, I really like your posts Cyberguy)
Letter to Destiny Church
Dear Brian Tamaki,
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learned a great deal from you and understand why you oppose same sex marriage. As you said, “in the eyes of God marriage is based between a man a woman.” I try to share your knowledge with as many people as I can.
When someone tries to defend the homosexual relationships, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination.
End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God’s Laws and how to follow them.
1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Pacific Islanders, but not Australians.
Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Australians?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in Her period of menstrual uncleanness – Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.
4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord – Lev.1:9. The problem is with my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I call up the police and ask them to do it?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination – Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this? Are there ‘degrees’ of abomination?
7. Lev.21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? [Lev.24:10-16]. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? [Lev.20:14]
I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.
December 16th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
We’ve struck a rich vein here.
As they say: “Tragedy plus Time = Comedy”
Ha haaa, keep em coming..!
December 16th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
An oldie’ish but a goodie.. and a bit serious really
“Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings”
December 16th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
And one of my favourites, though serious:
“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion”
Steven Weinberg
December 16th, 2009 at 7:24 pm
And another favourite:
“Religion easily—has the best bullshit story of all time. Think about it. Religion has convinced people that there’s an invisible man…living in the sky. Who watches everything you do every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of ten specific things he doesn’t want you to do. And if you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place, of burning and fire and smoke and torture and anguish for you to live forever, and suffer, and burn, and scream, until the end of time. But he loves you. He loves you. He loves you and he needs money. ”
George Carlin
December 16th, 2009 at 9:23 pm
@Erin B
ROTFLMAO – That was the best!!!
December 17th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
Thought I’d throw a few in to stir up the debate…
“Let a man think and care ever so little about God, he does not therefore exist without God. God is here with him, upholding, warming, delighting, teaching him – making life a good thing to him. God gives him himself, though the man knows it not”.
“From the moment a creature becomes aware of God as God, and of itself as self, the terrible alternative of choosing self rather than God for the centre is opened to it”
“What comes into our mind when we think about God, is the most important thing about us”
“The loneliest moment in life is when you have experienced that which you thought would deliver the ultimate, and it has just let you down”
December 17th, 2009 at 11:23 pm
@ Cyberguy and Phil
What objective evidence would it require for you to know that God exists? Give me an example or two.
@ Cyberguy
You say “… but the evidence for a real Yesua is insubstantial”.
No, the evidence for Yeshua is quite compelling.
For starters, you mention (and acknowledge) the existence of Saul / Paul. Paul’s ministry began approximately 15 years after the death and resurrection of Yeshua. It would be impossible for your so-called ‘folk stories’ to develop to any degree at all in the space of just 15 years. Such folk stories, if they are indeed fictional, can only be fully developed many generations after the actual person lived.
December 18th, 2009 at 12:05 am
@Benji,
Well your first comment wasn’t debate, it was romantic poetry. Basically you can say whatever you want, it wont make it so. No matter how pretty the words. Wishful thinking.
As for the required evidence, it is hard to imagine what experiment you could devise to measure a god effect directly. Experiments have been done to measure the effect of prayer on medical outcomes…none apparently.
No, the burden of proof is on the believer that professes gods existence. I think then it is incumbent on you to come up with some evidence not on us to dream something up.
I’ll give you a hint, what if you wanted to prove to us that Dog exists? You might show us a photo, a paw print, some dog hair, a chewed sofa leg. It wouldn’t be that hard. Why? because the dog is REAL. The reason you’re struggling is that you are trying to convince us of something that is in your head and ONLY in your head. (and in a few others) All the “evidence” for gods existence has been planted by those with gods in their heads…all of it.
December 18th, 2009 at 1:54 am
“I think there is no better time for us as Atheists and Secular Humanists to come out and show our vocal and very public support for science and rationalism” I can’t see where these two things are connected – atheism and science. And I feel so sorry for those who believe in nothing, with so much evidence of something all around them.
Science is a process of empiricism, which can discover many amazing things which is wonderful fun. But seeing we know more and more about less and less, surely we must realise that a human mind cannot conceive of the immensity of that astounding something, let alone its origin. So to place the human mind at the top of the heap is an exercise in futility. The ‘something’ is much larger, and always drawing out and extending the human mind further and further past the previous confines, showing how little a person can really appreciate all there is, and how much more he has to learn on an exponential parabola.
And you really believe in nothing? On top of that you call it rational? I don’t get it! Where’s your evidence of nothing?
December 18th, 2009 at 10:39 am
@Helen Murray.
“More and more about less and less”? Where did you get that from? It seems to me that we know more and more about more and more. Sure, we keep on revealing mysteries that we never expected but that is not surprising. The human animal has evolved to deal with aspects of the real environment that directly impact on its survival. We are “tuned” to percieve and understand a narrow range of stimuli that are relevant to our way of making a living. We invent a radio telescope (for instance) and suddenly we can “see” galactic structures we never knew existed. We invent electron microscopes and discover a nano-universe we never imagined. We learn that other animals can see light wavelengths that are invisible to us. Reality turns out to be exponenially bigger than even our recent ancestors could comprehend and gob-smackingly beautiful.
It sounds to me like you have given up “its all too big and I can’t comprehend it” And you think that gives you an excuse to default to a god-dunnit attitude. Lazy, confused, woolley thinking. Don’t expect us to fall in behind.
Where do you get the notion that we believe in nothing? We (skeptically) trust our experience and the evidence and there is a whole universe of that.
December 18th, 2009 at 11:09 am
Go Phil.. great reply!
December 18th, 2009 at 11:36 am
Thanks Erin,
This is fun isn’t it?
December 18th, 2009 at 11:58 am
@Helen Murray – your reply is called “the argument from personal incredulity”. The point is that just because YOU don’t understand something, that does not means no-one else can.
Plus you threw in the strawman argument that atheists believe in nothing. Echoes of the brain-dead Ray Comfort there.
@benji – “What objective evidence would it require for you to know that God exists? Give me an example or two.”
There’s many – in fact there are probably endless examples. Out of sequence fossils, such as fossil rabbits in the pre-cambrian. DNA that shows a lack of inheritance, and points towards a spontaneous creation of the fully formed animal. Ideas in the bible that could not have been known at the time, and can only be understood today, such as descriptions of the make-up of atoms, or binary stars, of DNA, etc.
Of course god could simply do a miracle in a location that it could be properly documented, such as at in the middle of an Olympic event in front of cameras. Or he could cause a limb to regrow while someone was in hospital, so it could be investigated while it happened.
Or he could just appear to us – what is so hard about that?
The fact that none of these things happen shows at the very least that god is hiding. The better explanation is that god does not exist, as the universe looks exactly the way we would expect it to look if there were no gods.
Anyway, the onus to provide evidence for the existance of something is on the person who proposes the thing. If you want to know why, read my pamphlet “Scientific Method and the Burden of Proof.pdf” – http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~edmin/Pamphlets/Pamphlet%2003%20-%20Scientific%20Method%20and%20the%20Burden%20of%20Proof.pdf
On the subject of Jesus/Yesua’s existence, it doesn’t matter if such a person existed. Even if he existed, he was mistaken about how the world and universe works. I have already made that point in my previous post. I write very deliberately and clearly – re-read my post if you have trouble with comprehension.
December 18th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
@benji
I notice that all your posts seem to completely free of anything remotely resembling evidence. Just assertions, questions and a few un-referenced quotes.
Can you make points that are a bit more substantial? For example, something that references reality.
Thanks.
December 18th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
@benji – “For starters, you mention (and acknowledge) the existence of Saul / Paul. Paul’s ministry began approximately 15 years after the death and resurrection of Yeshua. It would be impossible for your so-called ‘folk stories’ to develop to any degree at all in the space of just 15 years. Such folk stories, if they are indeed fictional, can only be fully developed many generations after the actual person lived.”
Yes, but the Acts of the Apostles was not written in 15AD, but much later – probably sometime between the second half of the 1st century and the first half of the 2nd century.
That is plenty of time for rumours of a Yesua to get garbled, mixed up with other traditions (virgin birth, resurrection), and for Paul to create a few personal legends about himself and his conversion, in order to cement his authority on the early church.
Plus the Acts was not written by Paul, but by a follower. So it is very late hearsay, not even eyewitness.
You can’t put much weight on this stuff as being factual. Major delays in writing it down, lack of corroboration from other sources, and various personal agendas make these stories all highly suspect.
December 18th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
Hi Phi
Yes it is fun eh. Bit like shooting fish in a barrel though, sadly for us all.
December 18th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
Instead of signs on buses, do what the christians and mormons do, place a copy of the ‘God Delusion’ in hotels and motels.
The white man gave the pacific syphilis, trousers and the bible. – Anon.
December 18th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
@ Cyberguy, Phil, Campbell, Erin B
As I said in my original post, I’m not here to argue with y’all.
I know that God exists. He has shown Himself to be real to me, and that is all I need to believe.
He has shown Himself to be real to you as well – Psalm 19:1 says “The heavens tell of the glory of God. The skies display his marvelous craftsmanship”. I really hope that you take the time and have the intent to look and search for yourself so that you can know He is real. He is out there, and is waiting for you to clear your diary for a meeting with Him.
If any of you live in the Wellington region, I’m putting up an offer to come to church with me on Sunday morning. Start time is 10am, and it will be very low-key as the Sunday school kids are portraying the Christmas story. I don’t even think there will be a sermon this Sunday.
But God will be there. Don’t bring your camera, and leave the autograph book at home. God is not there to have his photo taken, or give you his signature. He is there because He wants to show you that He is real and that He loves you.
Post back here by Saturday night, or flick me an email on benji_the_statsman {at} yahoo.co(.)nz. I will then give you my mobile number.
BTW – would definitely be happy to come along to a similar meeting of an atheist group.
March 26th, 2010 at 7:36 am
Benji
Thanks for the invite to your church.
I too invite you to not go to church in solidarity with me, perhaps sleep in on Sunday. God wont notice you didnt turn up.
Cut and pasting specific pieces from the bible is a dangerous game, as anyone can find both negative and positive books in the bible. –
- There is a great book on that topic called “The Harlot by the Side of the road” by Johnothan Kirsch. It covers lots of tales out of the bible and then explains the political and social context of the time it was written in. I saw him present at an atheist conference last year.
As a lawyer, he also ran through the history of violence implemented by the ORIGINAL (C) Catholic Church.
To give a passage special respect in the bible, it assumes belief already.
There probably is no God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life.
March 27th, 2010 at 8:30 pm
Hi rob
Its been a while since this thread was going!
In fact, I will be competing in a running race tomorrow morning, but plan to go to a service in the evening.
Will God notice if I turn up to church or not? He will notice, but I’m pretty sure he wont hold it against me if I don’t! But I think it is important to remember that going to church does not make one a Christian, just like going to a concert doesn’t make you a musician.
If a person wants to follow God, He requires more of us than just turning up to church every Sunday. Unfortunately, many Christians (including myself at some stages of my life) are guilty of being ‘Sunday Christians’, and this is not the way to lead a fulfilling, abundant life.
Not exactly sure how you are defining ‘negative’ and ‘positive’ but if I can take a guess, then yes, parts of the Bible are definitely not a bed of roses! I am not familiar with that book but have googled a few reviews of it. Certainly looks like an interesting read. Not sure if I necessarily agree with the interpretation of the Ruth / Boaz story – I’ve read some other material which does not give the same interpretation of that story.
I will try to track down a copy of the book.
Yes, I would agree that anyone with no belief (or, more accurately, no desire to have a belief) is likely to give scant respect to the Bible. All I can say is that I would encourage you to give it a go – read the book of Mark, or Acts, something like that.
“There is probably no God” you say.
My question: what if there was?
What if it was all true?
However miniscule the chance that there is a God, what if there was, and what if He is who He claims to be?
What response would you give?
March 28th, 2010 at 3:08 pm
Benji
Your argument is “Pascal’s Wager”, first published in 1670 in French and 1688 in English. French philosopher Blaise Pascal said that a person could “wager” as though God exists, because they have everything to gain, and nothing to lose.
Pascal’s Wager has been completely refuted as a line of reasoning many times over the past 340 years. The fact that you raise it anyway, as if it was some sort of devastating argument, shows the fundamental dishonesty of religious thinking. The logic fails because the wager makes a number of false assumptions.
First it assumes that the person chooses the right god, and that God only rewards belief, not critical thinking.
Secondly, Pascal’s Wager is wrong when it proposes that religious belief has no cost. Religion wastes time in your limited real life, costs you money when you give it away to churches, and adds real guilt and fear to many individuals’ lives.
But most importantly, belief in a non-existent entity can cause harmful decisions to be made based on false assumptions and religiously inspired misinformation. Examples include when people join a cult, or those who believe in “the end times” and consequently enbrace the idea of nuclear conflict as a sign of these end times.
Actually, Pascal did not offer the wager as any kind of proof of god. It is merely a conclusion to his arguments about the limits of reason in the absence of evidence, and that discerning god’s actual existence appears to be “a coin toss.”
In summary, the premises of the wager are incorrect, and it is better to decide if there is a god based on real-world evidence than try to do these evidence-free “what-if” scenarios. The fact is, there is no positive evidence for the existence of any gods, and Pascal’s Wager is completely useless in changing that basic reality.
March 28th, 2010 at 9:22 pm
Hi Cyberguy
I find it interesting that you always feel a need to go on the defensive!
No, my last post was never intended to be “some sort of devastating argument”. At the end of it, I was simply asking a few questions. Nothing more, nothing less!
My questions were nothing to do with making a wager with God, myself, you or anyone else on this thread. I was simply asking “what if this whole Christianity thing was true?”
I completely agree with what I think you are implying – if someone was to become a Christian due to the ‘everything to gain, and nothing to lose’ line of thinking, they are just going to get themselves into a mess.
It has similarities to a person following Hitler in pre-WWII Germany – more out of fear that they didn’t want to experience the downside. That is no recipe for success.
And yes, I completely agree with your paragraph beginning ‘But most importantly’.
Many times in this thread you say you do not believe in God because you cannot see any evidence For Him. I think I asked a question earlier in this thread about what sort of evidence it would take for you to believe in God. I’ll ask again – what would it take?
March 28th, 2010 at 10:03 pm
In regards to what sort of evidence it would take
Benji, perhaps read thru some earlier posts and you will get an idea of the atheist viewpoint.
You have stated ” He has shown Himself to be real to me”. And thats all you need.
Some of us havent had that experience, so we might need something else. ( I type this with a smile!)
If you are really interested in why many people dont believe in god, perhaps start with Christopher Hitchens or Sam Harris for reading matter.
Or compare and contrast Baha’i, Christianity, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Shinto, Sikhism, Taoism, Wicca, Zoroastrianism..
They cant all be right.
In regards to if I am wrong, I will have to read up on Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, and see what I will come back too earth as.
I think I would like to be a cat.
March 29th, 2010 at 1:00 am
Benji
Some examples that would provide evidence for the existence of some sort of god:
1. Documented prayer answered in an unambiguous way (amputees healed) that cannot be satisfactorily explained in naturalistic terms.
2. Prayer for a sick person statistically improving the chances of that person surviving usually fatal diseases such as cancer (this experiment has been done, and shows no difference between prayer and no prayer).
3. One religious group clearly being more “fortunate” to a statistically significant level than equivalent others who do not subscribe to the same religion. “Fortunate” means they experience increased positive random events and decreased negative random events (e.g. significantly less affected by natural disasters, more likely to win lotto, etc) compared to others.
4. You can also test whether the prayers of various religions and sects that believe in such a God have a statistically significant higher chance of being answered in an unambiguous way compared to other sects.
4. Out of sequence fossils that cannot be explained through natural selection (Fact: no out-of-sequence fossils have ever been found, which strengthens the argument for natural selection).
5. True irreducable complexity that can not be explained by a sequence of DNA steps (no irreducable complexity has ever been found).
6. A prophecy or knowledge that unambiguously could not have been known at the time, e.g if there had been a clear description of atoms or WWII in the bible. Basically anything in the Bible that is true, but could not have been written using the knowledge of the time.
So far no evidence of the above types has been found.
March 29th, 2010 at 9:42 am
Benji,
You really need to take that challenge seriously, just a little real world evidence should not be too much to ask.
Admiring your work as always Cyberguy.
I didn’t think I needed to comment except to make one point:
We are arguing against a belief that many WANT to be true. I know, I’ve been there myself. All evidence or logic will be twisted and made to conform with the belivers paradigm…untill he/she makes a personal choice to get honest, and allow for the possibility that the paradigm is flawed. For most this is well out of their comfort zone.
For me it took a number of years of noticing that the real world did not entirely conform to my belief-system model. With religion, unlike science, questioning the model is not encouraged…which just made me question the model more. But there it is, a personal choice based on a level of curiosity that not every beliver has. How curious and honest are you Benji?
March 29th, 2010 at 9:32 pm
Phil
Benji is just a fucking loser and he pisses me off with his dumb-arse shit. He has no fucking brains.
Cyberguy