Atheist Bus Campaign determined to roll on despite set back
23.02.10 | simon | 
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Example ad image from the UK Campaign (thanks Jon Worth)
The NZ Atheist Bus Campaign, which late last year raised in excess of $20,000 from public donations, has met a set back in their plans. Nationwide bus company NZ Bus, who had tentatively approved the campaign’s ads on buses in major city centres, have now rejected them.
NZ Bus stated that they have received a number of complaints from the public about the proposed ads, which read “There’s probably no god. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.”
Spokesperson for the Atheist Bus Campaign Simon Fisher says “It’s concerning that peaceful atheist messages are not allowed on buses while religious messages are often seen on buses and in public. Messages of atheism are rare in New Zealand and we aim to raise awareness for the one-third of New Zealanders who are unconvinced by the claims of religion.”
Organisers of the Campaign tried to reach a resolution with NZ Bus, and later attempted mediation sessions through the Human Rights Commission. NZ Bus refused to participate in these mediation sessions. Because they are refusing to discuss the matter and reach an agreement, the organisers of the Campaign are now investigating the possibility of taking this case to the Human Rights Review Tribunal.
Simon Fisher says “we’re disappointed at the response from NZ Bus and plan to look at options going forward. We owe it to the thousands of Kiwis who have supported this campaign with donations and messages of support.”
Advertisements with identical wording ran in the United Kingdom, Canada, Germany, and Spain. Similar campaigns also ran successfully in Croatia, Finland, Holland, Italy, America and across the Tasman in Australia.
“We are gravely concerned that in New Zealand we’re unable to present an atheistic message, showing that we do not have the same practical freedom of expression as in other first world countries. It highlights why this campaign is so necessary.” said spokesperson Simon Fisher.
The Campaign will continue to accept donations for advertising, see http://www.nogod.org.nz for further details.
February 23rd, 2010 at 8:43 am
I really thought NZ was better than this. If there’s one thing this campaign has achieved already, it’s to show that even in a country that appears free-thinking on the surface, there is a strong undercurrent of closed-minded hypocrisy.
Keep up the good work, but if it really doesn’t work out feel free to use my donation to buy yourselves a beer. You’ve earned it.
February 23rd, 2010 at 9:04 am
I’ve just emailed NZ Bus at info {at} nzbus.co(.)nz to let them know how unimpressed I am and how I will not be using their services until they’ve had a rethink.
February 23rd, 2010 at 9:11 am
That stinks. How do I, as an atheist, object preemptively to any and all religious advertising on busses from now on?
Might be worth a lot of people writing letters / emails to the human rights comissioner, and NZBus
February 23rd, 2010 at 9:27 am
Its a sad indication that our society is still stricken by pre-renaissance ideals.
The Atheist Bus Campaign has reason on its side, and I’m sure other avenues of promotion will present themselves. Bumper stickers are effective.
February 23rd, 2010 at 9:49 am
[...] did in the UK, Canada, Germany, Spain, Croatia, Finland, Holland, Italy, America and Australia – will not be able to run their adverts here. NZ Bus said they had "received a number of complaints from the public" and would not be running [...]
February 23rd, 2010 at 9:56 am
Look at it as an opportunity to get more advertising of the issue. You should be able to get a news story on NZ Bus refusing to run the ads.
February 23rd, 2010 at 9:59 am
That really sucks. Hopefully NZ Bus will change their decision to run the ad even if we have to convince them.
I’d expect you are also contacting more mainstream media outlets with examples of religious ads NZ Bus have run in the past. As well as showing them to NZ Bus.
And for everyone else. Please do not rage against NZ Bus poorly. If you’re going to contact them be polite and clear. Leave the insults at home as they would only give ammo to those that have convinced NZ Bus to not run the ads.
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:18 am
What’s an email address that we can send to?
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:42 am
Just emailed nzbuses as well. Remember the mockery that was made at the last census with the whole Jedi religion???
February 23rd, 2010 at 11:07 am
Judi posted NZBus’ email earlier. I’ll put it here again.
http://nzbus.co.nz/contact-us.php
February 23rd, 2010 at 11:09 am
Hmmmmm… That doesn’t look very email like.
Oh, right. That’s the page with all their contact details. Email, phone, snail mail, etc. Whoops.
February 23rd, 2010 at 11:09 am
Just sent them an email too (info [at] nzbus.co.nz), if they’re so easily swayed by public pressure, then hopefully that will swing both ways.
I would encourage everyone to email them – regardless of beliefs – as banning a non-malicious advertisement belonging to a minority group because of pressure from a majority group is (in my eyes) suppression of free speech.
February 23rd, 2010 at 11:23 am
I’ve emailed them, cheeky buggers…..I don’t use the bus but have told them I will definatly now not use the bus ever
February 23rd, 2010 at 11:39 am
I sent them an email too.. as follows:
“I’m very disappointed with your decision against the Atheist Bus Campaign.
You’ve shown religious messages on buses many times (even bus adverts
with quotes from the pope about hell!) but it seems that the 1/3rd of
non-religious people don’t get the same option.
That you wouldn’t even go into the HR tribunal to try and reach some
kind of agreement or compromise is perhaps the most showing part of
this.
Pathetic.”
February 23rd, 2010 at 12:29 pm
Open Letter to NZ Bus
“Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing with concern at the NZ Bus decision to not allow the ‘Atheist Bus Campaign’ to run their advertisements.
I suggest that NZ Bus reverse this decision to avoid unwanted public humiliation. In 1955, when Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat on a bus, she did so to fight against the despicable discrimination of the time.
In 2010, non-believers and believers alike will fight for their right to advertise their legitimate views on a bus without discrimination.
Today’s advertising is littered with sexual connotations which many view as offence yet NZ Bus believes it has the moral high ground to decide that a slogan expressing a probable fact crosses the line.
With all the public subsidies received by NZ Bus, the least one could expect would be impartial treatment.
I regularly use NZ Bus services however I will be suspending this until the ‘Atheist Bus Campaign’ is given at least a fair go.”
February 23rd, 2010 at 12:42 pm
I’ve just e-mailed them also. Idiot/Savant of No Right Turn raises some good points about how this decision is actually illegal; http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2010/02/silencing-atheist-bus-campaign.html
February 23rd, 2010 at 12:47 pm
Sent To: info {at} nzbus.co(.)nz
Hello
My name is Daniel Schealler. I’m a software developer and a citizen of New Zealand. I also happen to be an atheist.
I’ve recently become aware of the news that NZBus has rejected the advertisements from the Atheist Bus campaign due to complaints from the public.
http://www.nogod.org.nz/2010/02/atheist-bus-campaign-determined-to-roll-on-despite-set-back/
Well, I’m a member of the public too. I’d like to complain.
The decision of NZBus to decline the Atheist Bus campaign is very, very disappointing and utterly unfair. Grass roots organizations drum up investment capital for advertising campaigns all the time. The Atheist Bus campaign in NZ is no different to any other.
Clearly as a private company, NZBus can choose what clients to take and which to reject. But the Atheist Bus project was tentatively accepted in the past. The only reason for rejection has been dissent from a vocal minority that object to the message of the campaign.
The fact that the campaign has been dropped, and the manner in which it has been dropped, reveal exactly the dominant attitudes in our society that the campaign itself is attempting to address. I always considered that culturally, New Zealand was just too sane for something like this to happen. It’s the sort of thing I always associated with wacky Americans, not us down-to-earth Kiwis. Until now.
New Zealand has a large and growing population of atheists. We matter, and we deserve to have our message heard and to engage with our country and our culture as much as the any other sub-set of the population.
Unfortunately, there is a significant population in New Zealand that is opposed to us and for some reason seems to actively fear and resent our message. They do not engage with us publicly in the free marketplace of ideas and public discourse – and it is this lack that we are attempting to address.
As any atheist will tell you, we value disagreement and argument and critical thinking – there is no desire to silence someone that we disagree with. If there is a population within New Zealand that objects to the message, then let them say so! We want them to engage in public discourse on the topic of religion and atheism in our culture. That’s more than half point of the campaign we’re trying to have in the first place.
But instead, those we want to engage with have chosen to dismissively silence us rather than engage with us if fair discourse. The insidious thing is about it all is that it has worked. That there are such forces in play within our culture is worrying enough and deserving of action. That a major advertiser like NZBus has allowed itself to become the device of this force is worrying.
I would never object to a religious organization paying for a bus advertisement, and I would be first in line to defend any organization, either secular or religious, that was denied service in the manner that we have been denied. How unfortunate that there is a vocal subset of religious New Zealanders that cannot extend us atheists the same polite courtesy of allowing us to have our say.
And how dissapointing and unfair that the NZBus brand has allowed itself to become the implement of petty small-mindedness.
Thank you for the time you have spent reading this.
Sincerely,
Daniel Schealler
February 23rd, 2010 at 3:16 pm
Good on NZ Bus for refusing to display such a comment as it is way easier to prove that God actually exist than not. Scientifically proven. Seek and you will find, ask and you will receive if you are really searching for the truth. Thank you and I sincerely hope that you do find what you are really searching for. Thank you. Lenard.
February 23rd, 2010 at 4:06 pm
I have also emailed them and told them how pathetic they are. Personally I’m more agnostic than atheist, but it is about the freedom to post peaceful message regardless of religion
February 23rd, 2010 at 4:09 pm
Interesting choice of target countries for these ads. Try doing something similar with allah in Saudi Arabia. Make sure you post the results to Youtube – should be a good laugh
February 23rd, 2010 at 4:12 pm
Well that’s excellent news Lenard! If it’s “way easier to prove that God actually exist than not” then I eagerly await said scientific proof.
February 23rd, 2010 at 4:23 pm
From the front page of NZbus.co.nz
If you have a media enquiry, please contact
Siobhan O’Donovan, Communications Manager on 021 840 839.
February 23rd, 2010 at 5:16 pm
hey people,
someone must know someone who knows someone and what has probably happened is that someone has made a threat of some sort that would affect nz bus’ business, e.g. “put up those banners and we will…”. Just another case of someone pushing their belief or religion onto others, like family first, the sensible sentencing trust , or in the case some faceless religious zealot who doesn’t like someone disagreeing with them. but yeah, give nzbus helll ! (if there is one..)
February 23rd, 2010 at 5:23 pm
Note to all: Please don’t feed the troll.
This site may be getting a lot of hits in the near future. I’d rather it if we didn’t wind up with a blog filled with internet rants for the media to cherry pick.
February 23rd, 2010 at 5:33 pm
Yet you can run a nationwide raffle to raise millions to build a new church and get free tv advertising. Pathetic. How are these ads any less offensive than Tui ads? What an insult to our intelligence. Take it to the Human Rights Tribunal – all the way!
February 23rd, 2010 at 6:53 pm
Dear Sir/Madam,
As an Auckland ratepayer, a direct customer of your buses in Auckland and as one of the individuals who contributed to the fundraising campaign, I express my concern that NZBus has decided not to run the ‘Atheist Bus Campaign’ advertisements.
I ask you to explain the grounds for refusing to run the advertising. If your refusal is based on religious discrimination, I remind you of your obligations under the Human Rights Act to disregard religion, or it’s absence, as a basis for discrimination in the provision of goods and services.
If the ads are not allowed to run on the basis of religious discrimination, then I have asked the holders of the funds to direct my contribution toward whatever legal proceedings are required to see this concluded satisfactorily.
Sincerely,
Hamish Campbell
February 23rd, 2010 at 9:24 pm
Dear Sir/Madam,
As a contributor to the NZ Atheist Bus Campaign, I would ask you to please advise on what grounds was it decided to not run this campaign.
Please be reminded that forward thinking societies embrace public discourse, as it encourages critical thinking.
By not running those Ads, you are guilty of discrimination, and are directly oppressing our basic human right to freedom of expression.
Liberty is a precious thing which needs to be protected, and respected.
As Voltaire said “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”
Let reason, liberty, equality and fairness prevail by running those Ads.
Yours sincerely,
Shama Sukul Lee
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:44 pm
To Whom It May Concern
I was appalled to see today that you have refused to accept paid advertising from this campaign. I should like to officially complain in advance of any advertising campaign planned for the future on the grounds that I personally don’t think other people should be exposed to the ideas contained within them.
I would ask to be consulted before any future bus advertising to ensure no conflicting ideas are presented, and would caution that not heeding this warning could cost your company significantly as I represent a significant bus-using sector of the population
Thank you for your time
Regards
February 23rd, 2010 at 11:37 pm
I saw this on Twitter and on TV3 10:30pm news. I just emailed nzbus.
I’m am contacting you to express my extreme disappointment that NZ Bus has reportedly refused to carry advertisements for the Athiest Bus Campaign (http://www.nogod.org.nz/).
I have several questions for you:
- why is there not a statement regarding this decision on your website?
- what specific criteria did you use to refuse this campaign?
- what criteria do you apply to religious campaigns?
- this campaign has run in numerous countries around the world – why do you think it is inappropriate in New Zealand?
- is there are reason why I should not campaign for public subsidies to be withdrawn from NZ Bus when it apparently is unwilling to support a significant part of the community, and in apparent contravention of the NZ Human Rights Act?
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0082/latest/DLM304475.html#DLM304475
Thank you in advance for your response.
I say spend the money on other companies, and taking NZ Bus to court re the Human Rights Act.
Oh, and I donated another $20 to your cause.
February 23rd, 2010 at 11:44 pm
The last two sentences in my message above weren’t sent to NZ Bus but were meant for this website. How about some of the money going into small stickers or cards that anyone can leave on an NZ Bus anytime? Let’s see them stop that…
February 24th, 2010 at 12:20 am
Here’s the link to the online complaints Human Rights Commission
http://www.hrc.co.nz/home/hrc/enquiriescomplaints/onlinecomplaintsform.php
I’m not going to rest until this campaign gets a fair chance to run.
Good luck everyone on your avenues of complaint.
February 24th, 2010 at 12:42 am
Dear NZ Atheists,
As a practising Christian, working for a church in London, England, I think it’s a crying shame that you’ve not been allowed the privilege of having this advert put on buses. I quite like the adverts – they provoke debate, make people think, and stir them from their apathy.
You’ve got my support, and I wish you all the best.
Oh, and please ignore the Christians who come on here looking for a fight. We can be a very narrow-minded bunch. Forgive us our indelicacies, please!
Thanks, and God bless,
David
February 24th, 2010 at 12:56 am
Disappointed by this. Whilst I don’t support your campaign, I certainly support your right to express your opinion. Even if it is “just another case of someone pushing their belief or religion onto others”
.
February 24th, 2010 at 3:20 am
Hello, just wanted you to know I have added your site to my Google bookmarks because of the informative content. Simple but effective. Sometimes I realize that it is difficult to find some good information about products but I think that I have found most of what I was looking for here. Thank you once again
February 24th, 2010 at 7:16 am
You guys are all crazy, God Bless Jesus!!! FOREVER, and the lord, and the Holy Ghost!!
February 24th, 2010 at 9:29 am
David Marriott:
Thanks David – I appreciate the gesture.
February 24th, 2010 at 10:16 am
My email to NZ Bus below. Will also try calling the phone number given above for their media person.
“Please add my name to those appalled at your reported stance not to allow the atheist bus adverts on your buses. It appears that you are happy with Christian messages but not atheist messages. This seems a very strange and unjustifiable stance considering the current makeup of New Zealand society.
Are you aware that in the 2006 census, some 35% of New Zealanders declared that they had no religion or were atheists? The figure for Christians in the same census was a fraction over 50%. Not only that but the “no religion figure” has been increasing by 5% from each of the previous two censuses (25% in 1996, 30% in 2001) and Christianity has been decreasing by exactly the same amount (60% in 1996, 55% in 2001). If this trend continues, then the gap will narrow in 2011, and in the 2016 census we are likely to see those of no religion outnumber Christians in New Zealand.
So atheists are hardly a minority group now, and likely to be the majority in six years time. So why do you feel it is acceptable to “offend” one large segment of the community but not another? And when you look at what the advert says, how can you actually describe it as offensive? It’s simply a statement of the beliefs of a very large segment of the population. Nothing more threatening than that.”
February 24th, 2010 at 10:31 am
Right, I’ve just phoned Siobhan O’Donovan, Communications Manager on 021 840 839 as recommended above. I was very careful to keep my voice polite at all times and simply asked if she could give NZ Bus’s reasons for rejecting the advertising.
She said first that she was the “media” person and only normally spoke to media orgaisations. But she gave me a couple of minutes. She said the reason for rejecting the advertisement was that following the publicity last year they had received calls from a number or outside people and their own staff disturbed at the adverts and so had decided not to show them “to avoid controversy’.
When I tried to ask her a further question she said she was not going to say any more. She spoke politely but over the top of me and hung up the phone as I was asking her if she would remove Christian advertising if enough atheist objected to it.
I infer that their decision is causing them embarrassment. So I suggest we keep up the pressure and I am another who would be happy to use some of the funds raised to pursue them via the Human Rights Commission.
Go Voltaire.
February 24th, 2010 at 10:37 am
I noticed yesterday that NZBus don’t cover Christchurch and that Christchurch is on the list of cities.
Are the buses still running in Christchurch?
February 24th, 2010 at 10:44 am
Add me to the list who are happy for my donation to be used to pursue this through the HRC.
February 24th, 2010 at 11:17 am
I’ve just placed a complaint through the HRC too.
February 24th, 2010 at 11:36 am
David Stott
Nice work on the phone call.
You have to love the irony behind the situation NZBus has gotten itself into.
Would there have been a bit of controversy had they just run the ads? Of course – but all they really had to do was trot out the stock standard:
The views expressed in the ads contracted by NZBus do not necessarily reflect the views of NZBus or their staff.
Or something to similar effect that pleases the lawyers.
It will probably turn out that discriminating against a grass-roots interest group on religious grounds will turn out to be far, far more controversial than if they’d just run the ads in the first place.
February 24th, 2010 at 12:13 pm
I cannot believe they would do a thing like this! I’m furious. Will definitely be emailing them and avoiding using them – and urging others to do the same.
February 24th, 2010 at 12:13 pm
As a Christian who works in a Christian organisation and serves as a licensed Minister in the Wesleyan Methodist Church of New Zealand, I am disappointed that NZ Bus have decided not to run with the campaign due to complaints from the public.
I believe in God. I believe in the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth and I do my utmost to live according to the principles and values that seemed to be central to the life Jesus lived.
I also uphold democracy and freedom of speech as great tools of a healthy and functioning society. Where it does not cause violent actions to be committed against a person or group, all citizens should be free to express their opinions and to use public forums such as advertising space to do so.
The inherent ability within a democracy for groups who differ to share their opinions and critique one another is necessary for our ability to live and function alongside each other in a way that encourages empathy and community. When that gets stifled we only encourage and feed division.
This campaign encourages discussion and gives people a way in which they can express their views – it’s a conversation starter. If it acts as a spark that encourages people to be honest about their views (either way) without feeling the need to shy away, then great.
My hope is that somehow it will still go ahead.
February 24th, 2010 at 12:31 pm
I’ve also contacted the Human Rights Commission – they are not getting away with this!
February 24th, 2010 at 1:10 pm
[...] of support and raised the funds necessary to get the messages of the side of buses… but now NZ Bus has backed out of running with the campaign due to complaints from the [...]
February 24th, 2010 at 1:49 pm
Disgraceful! This is the sort of nonsense you expect in the US, but they’ve already HAD the ads on their buses. I would encourage people to make their thoughts known to NZ Bus. Keep it clean and constructive, people!
February 24th, 2010 at 3:04 pm
I just sent them a polite email.
I think if they are justifying their refusal on grounds of the complaints they received earlier, then they are vulnerable to an argument based on the number of complaints generated by their refusal.
February 24th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
Can we donate money towards funding legal action if there is any human rights legislation that NZ Bus may have breached?
This sort of behaviour is more in line with what I’d expect in Saudi Arabia, not New Zealand
February 24th, 2010 at 3:29 pm
Ive sent my email to NZ bus company as well. They wanted to avoid controvery, but now have more on their hands. I agrueed that it was an infringement on human rights, freedom of speech and is similar to discrimination based on belief. I pointed out that any atheist who would complain about a christian ad would be labeled a discriminator and their opinion would become void.
This is soooo unfair, i will follow this issue.
Id like to point out that for each atheist who has heard of this issue, more haven’t. Publicity and pressure are most important to get a change to occur.
February 24th, 2010 at 5:12 pm
NZ Bus have removed their corporate office phone number from their website. I happen to know that it is 04 802 4100. I’ll be ringing to complain in the morning, as well as sending an email.
February 24th, 2010 at 5:48 pm
Just go through many smaller bus advertising companies. Palmerston North, beind a student city, would more than likely be a good climate for this kind of sentiment. The guy I talked to at the advertising company wasn’t adverse to the Atheist bus ads at all.
I don’t begrudge the NZBus company. If they alienated Christians, they’d probably be losing a lot of business and it really is their choice whether they run ads on their buses.
We can be all airy fairy about this and go down the Human Rights Tribunal avenue, taking far too long to come to a conclusion, or we can say, “Whatever, we’re doing this any way” and run billboards and ads with bus companies who won’t sway to public opinion.
February 24th, 2010 at 6:17 pm
I myself, a Christian, believe that you guys should have the same freedom of expression through an ad that a Christian does, but you have to realize that the reason they’re doing this is because of money. They are worried that if they do something the public disagrees with they will lose business, so they are going to try to stay on the public’s good side.
February 24th, 2010 at 7:19 pm
Here’s an idea:
make large bumper-sticker sized versions of the ad for distribution.
There are a number of us who support your efforts in Wellington that would be more than happy to slap these on every bus and stop in town!
February 24th, 2010 at 7:21 pm
I don’t begrudge the NZBus company.
I do. since when have they EVER cared about customer complaints before now?
I surely smell a rat… a fundy rat on the admin at NZ Bus.
I will bet money if you keep pushing, it will surface.
February 24th, 2010 at 10:27 pm
Ichthyic
No.
The idea does make me smile. But joking aside, that would be a bad idea to act on. Defacing public property is the kind of thing we’re supposed to be better than.
And you just know someone somewhere is going to quote-mine this website at some point and come out crowing with any little thing they can pick out of context.
We’re trying to win points in this campaign, not lose them.
Better not to give them any free ammunition, yes?
February 24th, 2010 at 11:25 pm
Opinion piece here: http://nzagainstthecurrent.blogspot.com/2010/02/not-on-buses.html
February 25th, 2010 at 1:19 am
Evan (Item 15), In regard to yr atheism, excuse me, but what is (quote) “a probable fact”?…other than just ‘a possibility’, no more, no less, ie an unreliable aspect, about which there can be…NO SURETY.
And Daniel Schealler (Item 17), Granting atheists the same courtesy of ideas promalgation as agnostics or believers, is akin to advocating homosexuality as another viable and proper optional model for humankind, in the face of the procreational heterosexual model…or of ‘other family models’, in the face of the evolutionary 2-parent family…or abortion as a viable normal option, in the face of the sovereign right to life of every living being that’s life has commenced.
And Stefan (Item 21), I trained as an architect, hold an honours degree and have run a practice since 1979, so I think I can claim some small comprehension of the significance of DESIGN. And be in no doubt, design is what we see all about us (and awesome majesty & beauty to boot), not accidental tragedies & failed attempts. The grandeur & vastness of the cosmos, in the elegance of the minutest particles of physics, in the diversity & beauty of Earth’s Nature, in the awesome power of the forces that fluidly swirl, yet hold it all in such fine balance…..yet gradually, not too qickly, not too slowly, evolves a process…which is CREATION IN THE DOING. An unfolding of the future in time, through motion in matter and in spirit. All this, under the very noses of those who would deny a Grand Design, sadly because they have swallowed the Creation-in-a-Blink theory just as heartily as fundamentalists, albeit to reject.
February 25th, 2010 at 2:33 am
Agree with Judi (2nd comment)
e-mail info {at} nzbus.co(.)nz to let them know how stupid they look
February 25th, 2010 at 9:33 am
I don’t at all agree with the actions of NZ Bus, but I can guess how it probably came to be in this state. (And this is a guess.) Complaints from the public might have had something to do with it, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the requests of its staff had at least as much to do with it.
NZBus is a company that’s had recent and ongoing bad relations with employee unions, including major bus driver strikes or lock-outs (depending on your point of view) as recently as 5 months ago which would have been a nightmare to manage. It’s also had pressure from the other side with people and politicians complaining about perpetually increasing fares and bad service.
If some drivers threatened to cause more trouble rather than drive a bus that advertised something they so fundamentally disagreed with, it would probably explain why the NZBus management got touchy and tried and walk a tight-rope between staff concerns and human rights laws, and hoped the whole thing would just simmer away and be forgotten. Doing so must have been unrealistically optimistic as they might now be thinking.
None of this is an excuse for management or policies that would have led to the whole situation in the first place. Personally I wonder if the problems go much deeper than its responses to a few complaints about advertising.
February 25th, 2010 at 10:14 am
Dennis Cooper
Regarding the portion of your comment directed at me, there’s only two things that are incorrect.
The first is the use of the term the evolutionary 2-parent family.
A two parent family system is just one of the many family structures discovered by evolution. While it is true that a two parent family is an evolutionary model for procreation, so is a single mother, or a harem, or serial monogamy. From the way your comment is worded, it implies that the two parent family is especially ‘evolutionary’ when the others are not.
Additionally, the notion of the human family has taken almost every form imaginable over the histories of the shared cultures of our species. The two parent model isn’t special.
Note that I have nothing against the two parent family. I think that for the most part it’s actually pretty damn good. But that doesn’t mean it’s the only option, or that we should turn away from other models just because they don’t fit with this preconceived ideal.
I’ve always considered that the beauty of family lies in unconditional love, and that in the face of this conforming to society is at best irrelevant and at worst detrimental. But what the hell do I know, I’m just an atheist, right?
Your comments on family are just another instance of the naturalistic fallacy, tarted up with the word ‘evolution’> I dismiss them as such.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=naturalistic+fallacy
The second is that you think that by associating me with homosexuality and abortion you are insulting me.
You seem to be so committed to your opinions and prejudices regarding these terms that you think them implicitly insulting. This shows that you are incapable of engaging with them rationally – the very definition of bigotry.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=bigotry
Just to clarify – I have no problem that someone should hold a negative view of these topics. I strongly disagree and would argue against this view, but I would grant a person’s right to disagree with me in fair discourse.
However, you haven’t really offered anything resembling discourse. You’ve merely attempted to taint me by association with these topics – but an idea or an opinion cannot be tainted. An idea may be illogical or unreasonable or prejudiced or bigoted, but I recognize no form of crimethink.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=crimethink
Your labels don’t scare me, Dennis.
February 25th, 2010 at 10:27 am
Everyone
I’ve received a response from my email to NZBus. It doesn’t address a single thing I actually said in my original communication, so I think they’re templating out a standard response.
I’d like to see if anyone else’s response looks the same as my own.
From NZ Bus
Dear Daniel
Thank you for your email.
Mr Fisher as spokesperson for the NZ Atheist Bus campaign launched his campaign in early December. This resulted in a number of press articles and broadcast coverage.
As a result of the publicity the campaign launch received, NZ Bus fielded a number of enquiries from the public asking about our involvement in and support of this campaign, raising their concerns. Additionally, a number of emails were received from customers expressing their distaste for the campaign and their distress. Similar concerns were also raised by a number of staff.
Mr Fishers campaign drew significant reaction from the travelling public and our people to be deemed controversial and divisive. NZ Bus has the right to decline advertising that may, in its perception, be considered controversial or divisive.
We have said no thank you to Mr Fisher and have wished him well in his endeavors to secure a bus company to work with.
Kind regards,
(image signature)
February 25th, 2010 at 10:29 am
Yup got the exact same message meself.
February 25th, 2010 at 10:31 am
Yes, I got the same response. What will they do if/when we complain about every ad they now display. It’s rare that an ad isn’t distasteful or offensive to someone.
February 25th, 2010 at 10:32 am
I got the same message too.
I tend to see that as a good sign. You don’t create a form response unless you have too many messages to respond to…
February 25th, 2010 at 10:32 am
Yup, got the same cookie-cutter reply. Heh, I actually thanked the lovely Katie Greenaway for a personal response. Huh.
February 25th, 2010 at 10:50 am
My response, with some formatting lost due to cut/paste.
———————————–
Hi
I would like to say thank you for your email – it does seem the decent thing to do, as that’s how you opened to me.
However, it has become apparent that the email you have sent me is a template response that has been trotted out to those who have complained. This is immediately apparent, as your email has actually restated most of the facts I have mentioned in my original.
So I find myself unable to say thank you for your response, since it wasn’t really a response at all. It’s just white noise. And it’s obvious that it’s white noise.
I’m actually a little insulted. I can understand why NZBus would be too busy with emails to reply to them all properly. Even for little old me, replying to my morning emails take ages. So no email at all? That I can live with. I was happy to send in my complaint and be done with it. But to offer me the response you have given, as if it would have some kind of pacifying effect… That’s just an insult to my intellect. This kind of cynical PR isn’t always as effective as I’m sure your marketing staff/consultants think it is.
I’ll close on an observation:
When a religious organization makes an advertisement about their religion, there are many other regious and non-religious individuals in New Zealand that disagree with it.
I don’t like religious advertisements. They bother me. In that sense, they are is divisive – they removes from me the notion that everyone in this country agrees with me. But that’s fine. I’m big enough and tolerant enough and emotionally secure enough to handle that.
But when a non-religious organization has attempted to run an advertisement about their non-religion, there are many that disagree that are also small enough and intolerant enough and emotionally insecure enough to cause a great big stink, and make a ‘controversy’ out of a mere differing opinion on religious matters. Or at least, these individuals are numerous enough to sway the opinion of NZBus.
A non-religious advertisement is no more ‘divisive’ than a religious one. The only difference is that significant numbers of the non-religious don’t stir up a big stink and a manufactured ‘controversy’ every time something is posted on the side of a bus that we disagree with. It would seem that significant numbers of the religious community do.
Why NZBus chooses to be persuaded by the smallest and most intolerant amongst our society is beyond me.
That is all for now.
An email in response that actually addresses what I have actually said would be nice.
Failing that, no reply will be understandable – I expect you’re busy.
Sending me the same template response again would be as hilarious as it is insulting.
Sincerely,
Daniel Schealler
February 25th, 2010 at 10:54 am
I got the same one. Although my name was quoted. I don’t think they believe my name is just Gold.
I took the time to reply however. Here’s what I said;
February 25th, 2010 at 11:21 am
NZbus may realise they have more controversy on their hands now that they have removed the Ad.
KEEP THE PRESSURE ON!!
I got the template reply and will send one back about my disappointment in them.
The more pressure the better
February 25th, 2010 at 1:34 pm
My email to NZ buses.
——-
Dear sir or madam,
I was very disappointed to read and hear in the news about NZ Bus’s
refusal to not only display the proposed advert on the buses but also
to refuse to enter discussion with the organisation! I have recently
emigrated to New Zealand from the UK, which has successfully run a
similar campaign. The UK is a far more staunch Christian nation than
New Zealand, yet the bus companies in the UK who ran the advert did
not consider them to be “divisive” or “distasteful”. The same goes for
many other countries, who’s bus companies have run the same and
similar campaigns. This campaign is no more distasteful or divisive
than Government warnings on packets of cigarettes, on TV warning
people to drive more safely, and encourages people to think about
their beliefs.
I have recently emigrated to New Zealand for the very fact that this
country is considerably more open minded, forward thinking and
transparent than the UK, and must express my disappointment at your
decision. I have been using NZ Buses regularly in Wellington since I
arrived but I am willing to, and will, inconvenience myself by no
longer using NZ buses until you reconsider your stance on the
placement of this advertising campaign. I will proactively encourage
friends and work colleagues to do the same.
Alastair Moore
February 25th, 2010 at 3:06 pm
Another email people are welcome to use…
To whom it may concern,
I wish to register my concern and distress at your attitude regarding the placing of atheist advertising on your buses.
Given that you feel it is appropriate to place religious advertising on your buses, you must in good conscience also place atheist advertising.
I personally find religious advertising somewhat offensive (Not to mention the other forms of advertising material you often see fit to display). However I believe that people do have a right to freedom of expression – as this freedom also protects my rights.
Your company apparently does not hold those same ideals – as demonstrated in your recent behavior – by arbitrarily deciding whose messages you will support, based on your personal views. Will you also be making similar decisions about which party to support at the next election?
I strongly urge you to accept the advertising that the Atheist Bus Campaign has submitted to you. You are damaging your brand, and the rights of New Zealanders.
Sincerely
Your name
February 25th, 2010 at 3:35 pm
Don’t forget to hit them up at Infratil as well. The company that actually owns NZBUS
I’ve just posted the following on their facebook discussion page.
http://www.facebook.com/board.php?uid=57993919565
I expect that they will kill it off.
What is the real reason that NZBUS, a subsidiary company of Infratil, turns down an income stream. What has been put forward so far from NZBUS is simply not acceptable or credible. I would have thought at where the share price currently is for Infratil, that any legal income stream would be of benefit to the shareholders?
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/national/3366649/Atheists-claim-bias-over-rejection-of-No-God-ads
The proposed advertising campaign on NZBUS by NZ Atheist Bus Campaing is even supported by Christian groups.
http://www.humanitarianchronicle.com/2010/02/atheist-bus-campaign-let-it-roll-on/
It would appear that NZBUS is acting with discrimination to the atheists when it has happily taken advertising from religious groups in the past, but won’t take an innocuous message from an atheist group. After all the message is that of the advertiser not of the NZBUS company.
Bryan Edwards makes a relevant point in his blog – “the sure and certain fact that nothing can draw more attention to a commercial than banning it.”
February 25th, 2010 at 4:50 pm
[...] a lot of support and raised the funds necessary to get the messages of the side of buses… but now NZ Bus has backed out of running with the campaign due to complaints from the [...]
February 25th, 2010 at 10:20 pm
I suggest that the advert reads
There’s probably no God, but what if there is.
February 26th, 2010 at 11:18 am
those who call themselves “freethinkers” are actually in the deepest bondage imaginable – they simply are not permitted to countenance the possibility that there actually IS a God !
I have respect for the honesty of Agnostics but I cannot understand the crass and willful ignorance of those calling themselves Atheists as though they actually have the faintest clue about existence…. The Creator says it best in Psalm 14 verse 1
February 26th, 2010 at 12:59 pm
Why not make use of the campaign funds to feed many poverty-striken hungry kids in Africa and Asia? Are you atheists really trying to make the world a better place?
February 26th, 2010 at 1:15 pm
Yosuke,
Because people are contributing towards this campaign with the expectation that this campaign plans to provide an alternative voice on buses in main city centres and to raise awareness of humanism and atheism. The campaign aims to spread a positive and humanist message that there probably is no God, and that you can live just fine without believing in one, as is says above on the right.
If I had contributed towards a “help the children” and later discovered your contribution had gone to help the aged, while I have no problem helping the aged, my money was going towards one campaign, not another.
February 26th, 2010 at 1:15 pm
Yosuke,
Because people are contributing towards this campaign with the expectation that this campaign plans to provide an alternative voice on buses in main city centres and to raise awareness of humanism and atheism. The campaign aims to spread a positive and humanist message that there probably is no God, and that you can live just fine without believing in one, as is says above on the right.
If I had contributed towards a “help the children” and later discovered your contribution had gone to help the aged, while I have no problem helping the aged, my money was going towards one campaign, not another.
February 26th, 2010 at 1:20 pm
Alex,
You’re hilarious, talking about willful ignorance.
February 26th, 2010 at 1:26 pm
All good points. But be careful – please don’t fall into the trap of reverse-trolling the trolls.
By all means, engage if they present an actual argument. But if they don’t, could we all please opt to just starve them of attention?
Most people will recognize genuine cranks and dismiss them (if they are an atheist) or cringe and dismiss them (if they are a theist). There’s no benefit (other than personal satisfaction) to joining a cranks argument on their terms on the comments section of a news post on the internet.
Sorry to get all preachy. It’s just that I’ve been impressed with how civil the comments of this site have been so far, and I’d like to keep it that way if at all possible.
Please don’t let them drag us down to their level.
February 26th, 2010 at 1:47 pm
“Why not make use of the campaign funds to feed many poverty-striken hungry kids in Africa and Asia? Are you atheists really trying to make the world a better place?”
Good questions. Answers from my POV:
- why don’t religious people stop donating to their religious causes and buy food for the poor instead, eh? For the same reason…
- … that we think spreading our convictions makes the world a better place. Just like the religious folks. Except we’re probably right, of course
February 26th, 2010 at 1:49 pm
Totally agree with you Daniel, by and large the conversation’s been very constructive. The trolls don’t have too much to crow about, especially given the presence of the word “probably” in the text. If they have an actual argument to make, then by all means… other than that, the theist responses I’ve seen can be easily ignored. That which can be asserted without evidence…
Lovely to see the godless out there making their thoughts known to NZ Bus in such a reasoned and reasonable manner. Kia ora, all!
March 2nd, 2010 at 8:18 pm
[...] March 2, 2010 The Greatest Argument of All Posted by viewfromreality under Uncategorized Leave a Comment “There probably is no God, so stop worrying and enjoy your life.” These words, plastered over buses around the world, are not offensive to me but they seem to be for a good many people. So offensive that NZ Bus refuses to post them on their buses in major centres. [...]
March 3rd, 2010 at 1:42 am
Well said, awesome post !
March 4th, 2010 at 12:30 am
There’s two options to this whole “Is there a God or isn’t there?” thing:
a) If there’s no God then that’s fine; Christians were wrong and atheists were right – big deal. If this is the case then we’ll never know anyway as if there’s no God then there’s no afterlife, we simply die and that’s that. No “i told you so”.
b) There is a God and atheists are foolish (Psalms 14:1) and wrong! This means that everything the Bible says is true; true Christians will spend eternity with Jesus Christ and all God haters and sinners will spend eternity separated from God in suffering and darkness.
Hmmm…I think option b) is a no-brainer.
March 4th, 2010 at 9:29 am
I think option B is a no-brainer too, in addition to being part of a false dichotomy. You’re making Zeus furious, and don’t even know it!
March 4th, 2010 at 1:49 pm
@RossN
In a) you assume an afterlife can only exist if God exists. Personally I don’t believe there is anything after we die, but you obviously do. However, what if we’re both wrong? God doesn’t exist (you’re wrong), but there is still an afterlife (I’m wrong)?
This leads us to the situation where I, as an athiest, have found that there is more to life than the physical existence I just lived though. This would leave me, personally, surprise and amazingly jubilant at the prospects of the future.
You on the other hand, find yourself in a position where you have lead your life in a certain style, denied yourself certain pleasures along the way to appease a god you “know” full well exists, only to find that your God doesn’t exist after all.
How would you feel then?
Personally, I’d feel ripped off.
This is of course on the assumption that God exists. However, the conclusions you draw from the final proof that God exists (you dying and meeting the big guy) are still incorrect.
b1) God exists, this means that everything the Bible says is true.
The problem here is that the Bible has been proven to be factually incorrect on many, many things already. The cognitive dissonance of Christians to hold on to “everything the Bible says is true” is astounding.
b2) God exists, true Christians will spend eternity with Jesus Christ
Given that the previous condition (“everything the Bible says is true”) is proven to be incorrect, and this “promise” is made in the same book, it’s validity and correctness has to be questioned.
b3) God exists and all God haters and sinners will spend eternity separated from God in suffering and darkness
See b2.
In addition, what about those atheists that don’t hate God? Personally, I don’t believe in your God, or any god for that matter. But I don’t hate Him, or them. Personally I think it’d be fantastic if God was real. Being able to do what ever I liked and absolve myself through confessional. Being able to externalize responsibility of my own actions because “it’s Gods will”. The comfort of this perfect place to live for eternity provided I follow a set of rules (which set of the thousands though?) for less that 100 measly years.
It would be comforting. I’d like to believe. But there’s just not enough evidence.
March 4th, 2010 at 2:19 pm
He’s trolling. No-one who thinks about it for more than ten consecutive seconds ever takes Pascal’s Wager really seriously. It’s only ever trotted out as atheist-bait.
Just starve him of attention.
March 4th, 2010 at 2:27 pm
True enough, but plenty of theists do find Pascal’s wager compelling, no matter how debased the logic. I did at one time, but to be fair I was 15. However, I think a reply is useful for those feeling their way towards throwing off their faith.
March 4th, 2010 at 5:10 pm
Heh. Now that shows me.
You’re right, of course. Methinks I’m getting too jaded about what people do and don’t take seriously.
I was always dismissive of Pascal’s Wager, because it never cuts in all directions. If you point out that the Wager applies to Zeus, they just say something like: “But everyone knows Zeus isn’t real!”
So I’ve always been inclined to interpret its use negatively. Now that you point it out, I’ll admit I’ve been wrong to do so.
Carry on. ^_^
For my two cents:
Aside from the problem that the Wager applies to Brahma just as much as it does to Yahweh, there’s another issue to consider:
Hedging your bets isn’t the same as actually believing something. If someone really believes in God, they shouldn’t need the Wager to help convince them.
So if the current reader is both a believer and considers the Wager to be a good reason to believe… Consider the true nature of your beliefs more closely. Do you believe, or do you just go through the motions of belief and hope nobody notices? Pretending to yourself that you believe isn’t the same as actually believing.
On the off chance that God does exist, I doubt He’d be any more impressed with the quality of your ‘belief’ than I am.
It’s worth some reflection.
March 5th, 2010 at 2:32 pm
Don’t usually like feeding the trolls.. but, hell, I just can’t resist this I found today. I picked the bits that stood out for me.
“Liberalism, atheism, male sexual exclusivity linked to IQ By Elizabeth Landau, CNN
(CNN) — Political, religious and sexual behaviors may be reflections of intelligence, a new study finds.
Evolutionary psychologist Satoshi Kanazawa at the the London School of Economics and Political Science correlated data on these behaviors with IQ from a large national U.S. sample and found that, on average, people who identified as liberal and atheist had higher IQs.
Religion, the current theory goes, did not help people survive or reproduce necessarily, but goes along the lines of helping people to be paranoid, Kanazawa said.”
so tempted to go ‘nah nah nah nah nah’.
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July 6th, 2010 at 10:21 pm
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July 14th, 2010 at 8:14 am
Looks like it’s time to add captcha. Spammers have arrived…
August 19th, 2010 at 4:10 am
This really is, as they said, a peaceful message. That being said, I do believe that everyone should have an equal opportunity to post their beliefs. However, when religion is involved, there is always going to be a fight. Those who either believe in a god or do not believe in a god feel very strong about their beliefs and will stand up for them. This will continue to be a never ending battle until humans no longer exist.
I do respect all of those who are standing up for whatever it is they believe in though.
September 7th, 2010 at 10:41 pm
oh my god i loved that bus banner!