No God, No Worries, November
2.11.10 | tim | 
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Hamilton and New Plymouth will feel the presence of No God this November.
Following the success of “No God” billboards in Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch in July this year, billboards go up in Hamilton and New Plymouth on 1 November, funded entirely by public donations.
Although a third of New Zealanders are not religious (source: 2006 census) young people are often confused and sometimes quite upset about whether or not to believe.
The billboards display friendly atheist messages, intended to promote thought and spark discussion, and to support people worrying about whether there is a god out there (or up there).
“After the last round of billboards we received messages of gratitude and support, mostly from younger people who had been afraid to question the beliefs they had been brought up with”, says campaign spokesperson Simon Fisher. “The billboards brought some people a sense of relief. We know there is often family or social pressure to conform to a belief system, but this is hard to reconcile with modern science. We want people to know that they won’t suffer in eternity for being thoughtful and rational”.
The signs draw on an international movement supported by prominent atheist Richard Dawkins.
The last round of billboards provoked one complaint to the Advertising Standards Authority, but the Authority ruled that the billboards do not breach the advertising code, which allows for “robust expressions of opinion”.
Campaign organisers are open to sharing the canvases with more towns: “If people wants to put one of our billboards up in their area they can contact us, arrange a location, and we’ll be delighted to lend them the canvas”.
The campaign has been supported by the Humanist Society of New Zealand and the New Zealand Association of Rationalists and Humanists.
LOCATIONS FOR THE CANVASES GOING UP IN NOVEMBER:
- Claudelands Road/Grey St, Hamilton
- Tristam St Southbound, Hamilton
- St Aubyn Street, New Plymouth.
November 2nd, 2010 at 4:32 pm
The more the merrier!
Perfect timing as we approach Christmas!
Well done to all involved!
November 3rd, 2010 at 10:13 am
Wonderful – keep up the good work!
Very proud of you all.
November 4th, 2010 at 3:23 pm
I just drove around Hamilton looking for those signs but could not find them at the locations mentioned. Today is Thursday the 4th of Nov. Where are they? Did I miss them?
Thanks!
November 4th, 2010 at 4:41 pm
@Louise
Sorry about that. We’ve only just received photos of the installation, so try again
November 5th, 2010 at 1:21 pm
If you dont stand for something, youll fall for anything.
November 5th, 2010 at 2:16 pm
Hi Chloe,
Firstly I’m assuming you’re a theist, as this quote is often used by Christians who think that Atheists stand for nothing.
I would argue that in fact we stand for the truth. We oppose fantasies and support fact, but the religious either can’t or don’t want to see that and that’s why they tend to repeat this quote.
So I’ll leave you with a favourite quote of mine by the late George Carlin, atheist and comedian.
“Religion has actually convinced people that there’s an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever ’til the end of time!. . . But He loves you!”
February 24th, 2011 at 6:54 pm
Its because of ignorant people like you and your groups that are the cause of all of mother-nature’s vengeance on the world.
Im certainly not religious but there is a higher power and when the world is coming to an end or some kind of distress hits you or a loved one, FAITH is the only thing you will have and it is the only thing you will have to turn to.
**pay special attention to numbers 4 and 5 – what is happening in NZ and around the world right now???? *****
There is still time brother. Change while you still can.
Hadith – Bukhari 9.237, Narrated Abu Huraira
Allah’s Apostle said, “The Hour will not be established
(1) till two big groups fight each other whereupon there will be a great number of casualties on both sides and they will be following one and the same religious doctrine,
(2) till about thirty Dajjals (liars) appear, and each one of them will claim that he is Allah’s Apostle,
(3) till the religious knowledge is taken away (by the death of religious scholars)
(4) earthquakes will increase in number
(5) time will pass quickly,
(6) afflictions will appear,
(7) Al-Harj, (i.e., killing) will increase,
(8) till wealth will be in abundance–so abundant that a wealthy person will worry lest nobody should accept his Zakat, and whenever he will present it to someone, that person (to whom it will be offered) will say, ‘I am not in need of it,’
(9) till the people compete with one another in constructing high buildings,
(10) till a man when passing by a grave of someone will say, ‘Would that I were in his place,’
(11) and till the sun rises from the West.
Peace be upon you. This universe and your life is not a coincidence.
February 25th, 2011 at 4:44 pm
@ Almirah,
I recommend the following link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8WmvMCTW_g&feature=related
As “Monty Python” appear to have a wonderful satirical take on your post. You may have to be patient while it loads, but if you can’t wait, I’ve taken the liberty of posting it in text form. Enjoy!
“There shall in that time be rumors of things going astray, erm, and there shall be a great confusion as to where things really are, and nobody will really know where lieth those little things with the sort of raffia-work base, that has an attachment.
At that time, a friend shall lose his friend’s hammer, and the young shall not know where lieth the things possessed by their fathers that their fathers put there only just the night before, about eight O’clock.”
Many a true word spoken in jest me thinks!!!
February 26th, 2011 at 3:11 am
Dear Paul Bennett,
I feel sorry for you. Choe is right. You have nothing to stand for. You think you stand for the truth but the truth is nobody knows what is out there. So you are wrong to say that religion is fantasy and “no God” is a fact. I know it is hard to believe something you cannot see but there is so much evidence out there and so many signs.
Faith is the only thing that gives comfort to people and aethists like you are wrong to attempt to turn people away from it.
Find some other hobby.
February 26th, 2011 at 4:54 pm
Hi Almirah,
I agree with you that the truth is that nobody knows what is out there, but that is exactly what has and continues to drive human enquiry, namely in the form of Science and the methods it employs.
That is one of the main reasons why I’m an atheist, because of the lack of any credible proof for religious claims. So, if as you say, there is so much evidence out there and so many signs, please feel free to offer at least one example for my scrutiny, but whatever you do, please do not use natural disasters, such as the tragic earthquake in Christchurch as an example, as it isn’t a valid one.
And again, I agree that faith may give comfort to some people, but I and other atheists are far from wrong in pointing out the irrationality that underpins it, as it I would have to adopt an irrational “faith” position, as all religious people have to do. Namely, a belief “not resting on logical proof or material evidence.”
Because of this requirement I reject such a belief, but I’m quite willing to alter this stance if anyone can convince me through the provision of logical proof or material evidence, until that time, I see no reason to change my position of atheism.
As far as hobbies are concerned I have quite a few, but as far as atheism is concerned, the last thing I would catagorise it as is a “Hobby”
Just for the record, the reason why the campaign uses the word probably, is because you’re quite right in saying that we can’t, without any doubt prove that god does not exist as a fact, in the same way that you can’t prove or disprove the existence of invisible pink unicorns, celestial teapots, etc.
Finally, returning to your opening statement about feeling sorry for me, well I kinda feel the same way about you and other religious people. So, I offer you this link:
http://richarddawkins.net/videos/595780-the-real-cost-of-religious-faith
Which is taken from one of my favorite shows, the US based “Atheist Experience” I challenge you to watch the whole length of the clip. Enjoy!
February 27th, 2011 at 4:06 pm
The very world you live in is material proof of the existence of God. You really think science created this with a big bang? Its not possible.
Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God.
At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to tell you that Islam is the one and only religion. God tried to let people now of his existence through Judaism and the Torah but people corrupted the holy book and wrote lies about it. God then tried to do the same through the Bible yet again people corrupted it. Even the bible mentions that God will send a final prophet and he did, and till today the Quran remains untouched.
Im not sure whether you are a scholar of science or just a stubborn man who does not want to believe that there is a God. I believe the latter.
Open your eyes and be open to other ideas apart from aethism.
Oh yeah and I challenge you to watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppIgFEFUpjw
I had a look at your clip and it doesn’t prove anything either.
Good day Paul.
Take care.
February 28th, 2011 at 12:04 am
Hi Almirah,
Firstly, I don’t believe for one second that Science created this world with a “Big Bang” as you put it.
However, I do believe that Science has, does and continues to help us understand how our world and the universe in which it exists came about.
Secondly, I hate to burst your bubble, but the earth is not spherical, so your holy book of choice, “The Qur’an” is wrong. Follow this link for a full explanation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tcOi9a3-B0
So you haven’t proved anything with that.
As far as Islam, Judaism, Christianity or whatever being the one and only religion, I don’t see how ancient holy scripts which cannot be verified should be trusted to decide how to live your life and even more importantly, allow you to dictate to others how to live theirs.
I wouldn’t call myself a “Scholar of Science” either, but nor would I call myself a “Stubborn Man”. For that I would have to have a religious belief that ignores the reality that my faith is based on irrationality, as all religious beliefs are.
I had a look at your clip, but considering that it was firstly fronted by Lee Strobel, who is well known as a creationist and former megachurch pastor. I see red flags a waving!!!
To add insult to injury, the opening also claims that it will show scientific evidence, when in reality all it does do is offer clearly discredited “Science” in the form of arguments for intelligent design by members of the discredited Discovery Institute.
Also William Lane Craig, who is a staunch Christian Apologist and creationist advocate.
Add to that Robin Collins, who worked as a physics programmer and software engineer for many years and prior to his Ph.D. in philosophy at Notre Dame, he began a Ph.D. program in physics at the University of Texas at Austin, but did not complete it.
The key words here are: “Did not complete it!”
Followed by Jay Richard who has gained attention with his intelligent design advocacy since 1996. He co-authored “The Privileged Planet” with astronomer and fellow CSC Senior Fellow Guillermo Gonzalez, etc, etc.
Really, if you have nothing better to offer then I could have saved myself almost an hour of my life that I wasted on this stuff!
As far as the clip I offered you, it was not attempting to prove anything to you, it was attempting to get you to think.
Clearly, that is one thing you don’t have to do when you are religiously indoctrinated, as you appear to be!
Finally, I notice that you have avoided answering my challenge from my previous comment, namely:
“please feel free to offer at least one example for my scrutiny”
Your clip doesn’t count given that the sources it uses have already been discredited, such as the controversial Discovery Institute, of which the Federal Court and the majority of Scientific organisations, including the American Association for the Advancement of Science, say “the Discovery Institute has and continues to attempt to promote a false perception that evolution is “a theory in crisis” in order to further their argument for the teaching of IP and Creationism within US State Schools”.
So, I’ll continue to keep my eyes open, while yours are obviously shut tight and as they say, “If ignorance is bliss, then you must be one happy individual”
February 28th, 2011 at 12:20 am
Hi Almirah,
Just thought I’d add this link to help counter your
flawed belief that important ideas of modern science were anticipated in the Koran or by Muslim ‘scholars.
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheIslammiracle
You never know, you might learn something!
February 28th, 2011 at 7:54 pm
I stand by what I say and believe.. you dont have to and thats your choice..
there’s two things that could happen – you will either live your life as an aethist and die an aethist, or something so will happen to you in your life that will make you start believing in God.
If I were you I woudnt believe everything put on youtube
start getting out there and search for the answer.
All the best.
February 28th, 2011 at 8:27 pm
“there’s two things that could happen – you will either live your life as an aethist and die an aethist, or something so will happen to you in your life that will make you start believing in God.”
There are many more than two things that could happen: there could be Zeus, Imotep, Dionysis, or thousands of other gods.
Here’s a list of how many current options there are,
http://holloway.co.nz/gods-we-dont-believe-in.html
There are thousands of gods that could be right, it’s not a choice between two options. There’s no way to know which gods are right.
February 28th, 2011 at 9:46 pm
Hey Almirah,
Using your statement: “If I were you I wouldn’t believe everything put on youtube” then why should anyone believe the item you challenged me to watch that you got from youtube?
Having said that, I consequently did watch and then refuted it using the professionally respected views of such people as the Federal Court and the majority of Scientific organisations, including the American Association for the Advancement of Science as the basis for my rebuttal.
In contrast the link I offered you, has been dismissed without any attempt to offer any valid or reputable refutation, other than that of your own opinion, so counts for little.
I would suggest some of your own advice, so start getting out there and search for the answer.
March 1st, 2011 at 4:31 pm
“American” Association for the Advancement of Science?
Thats like the joke of the century. I do not take Americans seriously. Not only because they’re extremely dumb, also because they don’t give a damn about their own people.
I do not care much for professionals with “respected views” either. Just because someone has a Phd doesn’t mean they know everything. Besides, you know how unorthodox the science of this world is. First they tell you eat this, do this, dont eat this etc etc… and then 5 years later they say oh actually, its the other way around.. The universe is too perfectly made to be a coincidence its just the human beings who exist who are deeply flawed.
@ MATTHEW – there is only one supreme God.
March 1st, 2011 at 4:33 pm
@Almirah
That’s avoiding the question. You said that there were two choices but clearly there are thousands of choices. My assertion was “There’s no way to know which gods are right” and you haven’t answered how you know your god is the one correct god, and why someone who believes in Zeus is wrong.
March 1st, 2011 at 9:59 pm
Matthew, I wasn’t trying to avoid the question. Zeus was a ruler of the skies which makes him the supreme God for Greeks. Maybe in different races and religions they have a heck of alot of names for God but most of these religions follow the same concept – One God. Allah = God in arabic. Yaweh = God in Judaism. Bhagwaan = God in Hinduism.
Are you an aethist or are you just curious to see what this campaign is about?
March 2nd, 2011 at 12:43 pm
Hi Almirah,
First I’ll deal with your attempt to dismiss the American Association for the Advancement of Science, which speaks volumes about your personel perspective and prejudices.
It is the world’s largest general scientific society, with 126,995 individual and institutional members as of the end of 2008.
Past presidents of AAAS have included some of the most important scientific figures of their time. Among them: explorer and geologist John Wesley Powell (1888); astronomer and physicist Edward Charles Pickering (1912); anthropologist Margaret Mead (1975); and biologist Stephen Jay Gould (2000).
AAAS affiliates include 262 societies and academies of science, serving more than 10 million members.
In addition to the obvious credability and academic rigour of such an association, I also find your dismissal of them and their opinions as ironic, given that you argued in comment 11 using a quote from Thomas Bacon that “an in-depth study of science makes man a believer in God.” and then went on to argue that the Qur’an contained scientific knowledge ahead of its’ time.
Further to that you also dismiss their opinion because they are American. A nation that in Scientific terms leads the world. Yet you view them as dumb!
Next you say, “I do not care much for professionals with “respected views” either. Just because someone has a Phd doesn’t mean they know everything.” yet you offered a clip to support your argument in comment 11 that presented us with “professionals with respected views” and some who also held Phd qualifications and some who were also American as well!!!!
Finally you attempt to discredit science for one of its’ best strengths, namely that it can alter its’ view on things given new evidence and research, what is commonly referred to as “The Scientific Method”, which has led to many of the modern 21st century technological advancements that we take for granted, such as the internet that you and I are using to communicate with.
This is in total contrast to a theistic perspective when believers of whatever faith think their respective holy books, prophets, etc have revealed a truth that cannot be changed, no matter what evidence is presented.
Taking all of this into account, your stated challenge to me in comment 11 that said: “Open your eyes and be open to other ideas apart from atheism.” would appear to apply more to you than me, as you obviously only selectively pick out the evidence and sources that support your argument, even if they cause you to contradict yourself and appear hypocritical in the process.
Your one interesting post, is the one you directed at Matthew with regard to there being only one supreme god in comment 17.
This could possibly be interpreted as you believing in a deist god, much like buddhists do or the type of god that Antony Flew concludes exists in his infamous change of belief from atheist to theist.
He states his position as deist: “I’m quite happy to believe in an inoffensive inactive god” and also added the provisos that his God is not the God of any of the revealed religions. In the same interview, he said: “I’m thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins”.
No doubt you probably wouldn’t consider reading anything as challenging as the opposite point of view to your own, but then you don’t appear to have a very open mind, like most theists, when it comes to challenging your beliefs.
March 2nd, 2011 at 7:28 pm
Trust me Paul, I am very open-minded. I respect all religions, views and beliefs EXCEPT Aethism. I even read up on Scientology without blindly dismissing it. Listen we obviously have very different views so lets just leave it at that shall we?
Goodluck with your aethism.
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:52 pm
Hi Almirah,
Firstly, just to put you straight, atheism is not a belief, it is a lack of belief.
Secondly, yes we do have very different views and considering your poor reasoning and evidence to justify them, I completely understand why you wish to leave it at that.
Finally, as the late comedian and atheist Dave Allen would say: Goodnight, thank you, and may your god go with you”
March 3rd, 2011 at 4:56 pm
Paul,
Can we see, taste or smell gravity? No. But we know it exists because we have and are experiencing it right?
Can we see air? No. But we do know it is there. What happens when you fill a balloon with air? It blows up. Therefore we BELIEVE that air is there, just like gravity. Just because we cant SEE God doesn’t mean he’s not there and it is this belief which we call FAITH.
I agree that I could not provide “concrete” evidence of God’s existence but I hope the above explanation sort of ironed it out.
Most great physicists were God’s believers – Newton and Einstein are a couple of them.
God is a spirit and he is everywhere, just like air is everywhere. We cant see it but we know its there.
March 4th, 2011 at 4:44 pm
Almirah,
Back again I see, but your reasoning continues to be deeply flawed.
You said: “Can we see, taste or smell gravity? No. But we know it exists because we have and are experiencing it right?”
However we can’t know for certain it exists, for that we need to employ the Scientific method, which refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.
Then you say: “Can we see air? No. But we do know it is there. What happens when you fill a balloon with air? It blows up.”
Once again the same methods and approach I described for verifying the existence of gravity can be used to investigate and prove both the existence of “air” and the various gases that make-up our atmosphere.
You then say: “Therefore we BELIEVE that air is there, just like gravity.”
But you forgot to add the crucial line, we believe it because we can prove it using the Scientific Method, otherwise we may be duped by our original beliefs, as they can alter our observations due to human confirmation bias that is a heuristic, for example using an educated guess or an intuitive judgment, that leads a person with a particular belief to see things as reinforcing their belief, even if another observer would disagree.
A perfect example of this is mental hallucinations, which can appear very real to the person experiencing them, but may in reality be due to mental illness, psychotic drugs, etc. Historically, religious people often did not eat for long periods, or ingested substances which would then cause them to see, hear and feel their god or gods, causing them to believe what they were seeing, but it was nothing but a false hallucination in reality.
Which leads to your big mistake, when you say: “Just because we can’t SEE God doesn’t mean he’s not there and it is this belief which we call FAITH.”
Namely a belief “not resting on logical proof or material evidence.” That is the exact opposite of what underpins the Scientific Method so is logically invalid.
You then describe exactly what I’m describing, by saying: “I agree that I could not provide “concrete” evidence of God’s existence but I hope the above explanation sort of ironed it out.”
So no it hasn’t “ironed anything out.” We are back where we started, namely science can provide evidence for the existence of such a force as gravity and such a thing as air, but when it comes to god, there is no evidence, other than your assertion that: “We can’t see it but we know its there.”
If you intend to convince me or anyone else for that matter, you will have to come up with real proof, not just an assertion of your opinion yet again. Surely you can see it counts for nothing, otherwise you would have to accept my claim that invisible pink unicorns exist because, using your logic, just because we can’t SEE Invisible Pink Unicorns, it doesn’t mean they’re not there!!!
Then you go on to assert that: “Most great physicists were God’s believers – Newton and Einstein are a couple of them.”
Firstly, I’m not surprised that Newton would have been religious, considering he lived from 1642 – 1727, in England, so he was reflecting the societal norm, which would have been to be religious rather than not.
Secondly, Einsteins’ religious beliefs are less clear, for example he is quoted as saying: ““It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly. I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem—the most important of all human problems.”
In fact some commentators believe he was an atheist or probably an agnostic.
Thirdly, regardless of the examples you gave, I could just as easily use Stephen Hawking as a perfect example of one of, if not the leading physicist of our time, who said in his latest co-authored book, “The Grand Design: New Answers to the Ultimate Questions of Life”, – “Ignorance of nature’s ways led people in ancient times to invent gods to lord it over every aspect of human life…since the connection of cause and effect in nature was invisible to their eyes, these gods seemed inscrutable, and people at their mercy”.
Finally you say: “God is a spirit and he is everywhere, just like air is everywhere. We can’t see it but we know it’s there.”
Hate to burst your bubble, but the truth is that we don’t know it’s there for certain without proof. What is more likely, is that god or gods exist as a concept within many peoples minds, providing, as you said in comment 9: “comfort to people”
When you have some real evidence, other than personal assertions you may get my attention. Until then my atheistic stance remains unchanged.
March 4th, 2011 at 5:29 pm
Wow, once again Paul your extremely LONG and useless attempt to explain against my logic has failed. Just deal with it. If you wanna be an aethist by all means do so in your garage or in private, but please stop your stupid campaigns and all this public nonsense!
I cant change your stance but hopefully something will. If it does then remember me
March 4th, 2011 at 6:43 pm
Almirah,
Don’t get so upset, as I understand that that is the opinion you hold, irrational as it is, but if you decide to challenge atheists on a website specifically created in relation to the no god bus campaign, then why are you so surprised when your obviously flawed logic and reasoning is pointed out to you?
I’ll try to show you your poor reasoning in a more simple way so that you can easily understand.
Have you ever noticed when the moon first rises that it appears to be larger than normal?
It would be easy to assume that it is closer to the earth, but it is due to the Moon appearing larger when close to the horizon, but this is a purely psychological effect, known as the Moon illusion, first described in the 7th century BC.
So, we have to be careful of believing things that we cannot prove beyond reasonable doubt. For that, we have Science and specifically the Scientific Method.
Do feel free to specifically show me how my argument has failed though if you can.
Not quite sure what my garage has to do with being an atheist, but the very last thing I or this campaign intends to be is silent on pointing out the irrationality that underpins positions of faith.
Perhaps your getting annoyed because for the vast majority of time, the religious have had a monopoly on preaching to the masses and when dissenting voices were heard, they tended to be silenced through extreme measures, such as the catholic churches persecution during the time of the inquisition.
Try comparing the contrasting options:
1 – Science flies rockets to the moon
2 – Faith flies planes into buildings
I know which one I prefer!
March 5th, 2011 at 6:35 pm
Thats a very subtle yet stereotypical comment don’t you think? “Faith flies planes into buildings”.
Do not judge the muslim community just because of a few idiots. No where in Islam does it teach people to blow themselves up. Take a look at your own western culture (since you dont have a religion). Sex, drugs, alcohol?
American Terrorist Groups:
American nazi Party
Christian Identity
KKK
National Alliance
Silent Brotherhood
The Aryan Republican Army
Terrorism isn’t reserved for Muslims! But serves America right for butting into the middle east affairs to steal our oil and killing innocent people.
March 6th, 2011 at 1:13 pm
Almirah
Firstly, I made the comparison between faith and science NOT between America or western culture in general and muslims. Your perspective not mine.
Secondly, regardless of whatever spin you attempt to put on things, you can’t ignore or pretend that the individuals who flew the planes into the twin towers on 9/11 were not motivated in a large part by their faith. That is a fact and is one of the reasons why I always challenge theists on their reasoning, regardless of which belief system they adhere to.
Thirdly, I don’t agree with or condone terrorist actions for whatever cause or motivation that is used to justify it, as I have seen firsthand how dangerous that can be when I was in Northern Ireland in the late eighties, when Catholic and Protestant terrorists were quite happily blowing each other up and shooting people due to their respective faiths, which seemed insane to me then, just as it does now.
Fourth, you can’t suddenly expect that I or anyone else with a rational mind is going to allow you to pretend that extreme acts carried out in the name of your faith of choice should be ignored, just because you personally wouldn’t act in such a way. The reality remains that they were, still are and will continue to be, so should be condemned.
Fifth, your statement: “No where in Islam does it teach people to blow themselves up.”
May be true, but what of the following taken directly from the Qur’an:
Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don’t kill them.) 2:191-2
Allah says that you must keep fighting until there is no more persecution and everyone on earth is a Muslim. Then you can stop killing people. 2:193a
War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216
It’s you and your religion against them and theirs. They won’t stop fighting until they make you a “renegade from your religion” and if they succeed in that so you die in disbelief, Allah will burn you forever in the Fire. 2:217
While there is no specific statement with regard to blowing yourself up, there are some deeply disturbing statements, especially 2:193a, which don’t help to support your argument at all.
Finally, as I’ve said before, if you’re going to argue for belief in god and the doctrine that supports it, then, wether you like it or not, you’re also stuck with the ramifications of those within that belief system who are quite willing to carry out extreme acts in support of their beliefs and interpretations of that system.
I have, do and will continue to use examples for any and all religions as one of the reasons why I support and promote rational, humanist thinking over such blind and obviously irrational thinking!
If that doesn’t make any sense to you, then god help you! (Even though I don’t believe in him!)
March 8th, 2011 at 3:25 pm
Nice try but thats not what surah 2 191-2 or 193 says. Thats what you get when you believe jerks who wrongly interpret things and put it out in public. Its something totally different in Arabic. Once again i stand my ground, nowhere in Islam does it teach people to blow themselves up or kill people if they don’t believe in Islam.
Thank you.
March 8th, 2011 at 9:45 pm
Almirah
You said: “Its something totally different in Arabic.”
How many times have I heard that said before, in relation to all sorts of holy books and texts!
Guess how may times christians have told me that the violent, bloodthirsty things written in the bible mean something totally different.
Different religion – Same tactic! No surprises there then!!!
Perhaps you would accept the interpretation of a more qualified source, such as a one of the most influential muslim holy men, who although now dead, still influences muslims today:
“Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males, provided they are not disabled and incapacitated, to prepare themselves for the conquest of countries so that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country of the world. But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those (who say this) are witless. Islam says: Kill the unbelievers just as they would kill you! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured? Islam says: Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter. … Islam says: Kill in the service of Allah those who may want to kill you! … Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thank to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other psalms and Hadiths urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who made such a claim.” – Ayatollah Khomeini
Which is a perfect example of what I said in my last comment, if you’re going to argue for belief in god and the doctrine that supports it, then, wether you like it or not, you’re also stuck with the ramifications of those within that belief system who are quite willing to carry out extreme acts in support of their beliefs and interpretations of that system.